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Bidders Lose Lots Because Ebay Can't Tell Time

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Posted 10/16/2024   11:49 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add shermae to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
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Posted 10/17/2024   01:30 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Actually, one thinks Ebay closes too late, because it cannot tell the correct time. The other suggests it closes late when there is no snipe-bidding and it hopes for some extra revenue by extending the deadline. In the last case it is based on observations where the extended bidding does not materialise.
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Posted 10/17/2024   02:44 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I have quoted from a source for which the link follows after the quoting. With in the quote, you will see that there are many parts to a second (cycles or hertz).

In my discussions above I selected a mid-range fraction, the millisecond (1/1000th of a second). Time does not stop thus there is never a reason or need to round up such that any amount of time after 12:12:12 am will show as 12:12:12 am such as 500 milliseconds or 999 milliseconds up to and until the time becomes 12:12:13 with zero additional time fraction. Then the time fractions are counted by the computer until enough have passed to reach 12:12:14 exactly and so on. Thus the whole number of seconds is displayed for one full second while the computer counts the fractions until the next whole number of seconds is reached at which time the next whole number of seconds is displayed.

If the computer is operating at a cycle of hertz of 1000 per second, then it is reasonable to believe the system could process 1000 last second snipe bids with out a problem. Of course all would show with the same whole number of seconds, but be sorted by the the number of cycles (hertz) which had occurred since the last whole number of seconds. As always of those bids the unique highest will win, no matter when placed. However if tie bids are revived then the bid received farthest from the end of the auction, AKA the earliest (first) of the tie wins as per the eBay stated rules.


Quote:
How Computers Keep Time Correctly?



Quote:
How Clocks Work?

Mechanical clocks are devices that convert the energy loaded into the mechanism inside into measured rhythmic movements, count these movements with gears, and when certain numbers are reached, present this as a measurement of time in a way that can be perceived by humans, such as the sound of a bell or changing angles on the dial.

What is the Time?

Time is the continued sequence of existence and events that occurs in an apparently irreversible succession from the past, through the present, into the future. It is a component quantity of various measurements used to sequence events, to compare the duration of events or the intervals between them, and to quantify rates of change of quantities in material reality or in the conscious experience. Wait, What? This is a deep definition. Of course, I copied from Wikipedia. But I will focus measuring the time with computers.

How Computers Time Work?

Computers have programmable timer chips. These chips can send 100, 500, 1000 or 1000000 interrupts per second depending on the required sensitivity. In computers, time is found by counting these interrupts and multiplying them by a fixed number. For example, in a chip that sends 100 (100 Hz) interrupts per second, time is increased by 10 milliseconds (ms) for each interrupt. In a chip that generates 1000000 (1 MHz) interrupts per second, each interrupt is 1 microsecond. This means that a computer's sensitivity to time depends on the sensitivity of the chip.

However, a computer's ability to keep accurate time can be affected by environmental factors. For example, changes in temperature and voltage can affect the precision of the timer chip. For this reason, computers regularly synchronize their time with NTP (Network Time Protocol). NTP servers receive the time from crystals that can keep time very precisely but are only off by a few milliseconds every few years. That means incredible precision in time measurement.

NTP adjusts a computer's clock by comparing it with NTP servers around the world. NTP servers use very accurate clocks, such as atomic clocks. This allows computers to set their time with very high accuracy. There is also a hierarchy among them (e.g. Stratum 0, 1, 2 and 3). The reason for this hierarchy is cost.

It is important for computers to keep and synchronize time accurately for many applications. For example, timekeeping is necessary to accurately schedule files and processes, to route network traffic correctly, and to ensure that users see the time correctly. Now let's look at the genius method used for time synchronization between NTP and computers.

For example, if its own clock is 11:01:06 and the server clock is 11:01:12, it will not suddenly move the clock to 11:01:12. We said above that a 100 Hz chip adds 10 ms per interrupt. The NTP client adds 9 ms (sampling) instead of 10 ms per interrupt for a period of time until the gap closes, thus consciously going back 100 ms every second (like slowing down when you are running and your friend can't keep up with you). As a result, the client makes up the 4 s (4000 ms) difference in 40 seconds. The reason for this behavior, called disciplining the system clock, is to avoid confusing the applications running on the computer. This way, when time changes on computers, everything usually continues to work properly.

Measuring time accurately and increasing precision is so important that this year the 2023 Nobel Prize in Physics was awarded to three scientists for their "attosecond" experiment, the smallest known unit of measurement of time.

To understand how small a unit of time the attosecond is, we can use the following example. For comparison, an attosecond is to a second what a second is to about 31.71 billion years. Especially in sensitive and large projects related to human life, the tiniest error in time can result in a disaster.

https://ahmetdoruk.medium.com/how-c...7de71f20d82d


This is one of those times, yet again, I miss Don (RIP). He would have already explained the issue by the time I saw the thread and likely used fewer words.

Edit: Added a missing "s" to a word.
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Edited by Parcelpostguy - 10/17/2024 02:45 am
Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 10/17/2024   03:00 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
That clears up why the 11:01:10 bus has been cancelled this morning.
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Germany
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Posted 10/17/2024   08:12 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LordInVader to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
If Timm still stands by his initial post after all these excellent explanations, it eludes me why Timm even asked this question?

Why ask a question when you refuse to accept the answer?

As has already been explained before, the actual end time is not what Ebay displays after the fact in terms of hours and minutes, but the internal time recorded in the database, including the seconds.

In fact: When you bid, you DO see the seconds counting down, so I dont see why such a fuss is made of this?
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Posted 10/17/2024   09:31 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add sheetguy2 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Some people just look to instigate....
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Posted 10/17/2024   1:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Some people just look to instigate....


Or are just whiny losers as I suspect Timm lost the item which was the basis for the thread.
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Posted 10/17/2024   3:28 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add shermae to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If Timm still stands by his initial post after all these excellent explanations, it eludes me why Timm even asked this question?


Misery loves company
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Posted 10/17/2024   7:59 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
"If the computer is operating at a cycle of hertz of 1000 per second, then it is reasonable to believe the system could process 1000 last second snipe bids with out a problem."
The 1960s are calling and they want their super slow computer back.
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Posted 10/20/2024   1:34 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Timm to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Stated Close 6:04pm PDT

The 6:04pm PDT is the close of the previous minute

6:04:01pm PDT is the beginning of the NEXT minute and 1 second after the stated close.

The operative word is "Close"

The Auction Closed at 6:04pm PDT . Time is finite! Any amount of time after the stated close time is the beginning of a new or next minute.



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Posted 10/20/2024   1:59 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Timm,
So sue them and get back to us when you win your suit
Otherwise WHAT does this thread have to do with stamp collecting???
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Posted 10/20/2024   2:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ZebraMan to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't think that reasoning is correct.

Quote:
The 6:04pm PDT is the close of the previous minute

No, 6:03:59.999 is the close of the previous minute. 6:04:00 PM is the start of the next minute.

Is midnight 12:00 AM the close of the previous day or the start of the new day? Most people would argue that 11:59:59 PM is the last second of the previous day and 12:00:00 AM is the start of the new day.

If a baby is born at 6:04:01 PM does the doctor write 6:04 PM on the birth certificate or 6:05 PM because 6:04:01 PM "is the beginning of the next minute"? I would anticipate the doctor would report 6:04 PM, just like eBay does.

Regardless of what we think of time in astronomy or physics, eBay's rules are what they are, and if we want to use their services, we have to abide by their rules.

I expect they would get many more complaints if eBay advertised the lot will be closing at "6:05 PM" and then shuts off all bids at 6:04:01 PM. As others have mentioned, if all lots closed on the same second, it would put unnecessary strain on the servers with the spike in activity for that one second and then a lull for the next 59 seconds. eBay says it ends around 6:04 PM, but astute bidders will notice the countdown clock at the end of the auction to see how many actual seconds remain in the auction.
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Posted 10/20/2024   2:24 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Is midnight 12:00 AM the close of the previous day or the start of the new day? Most people would argue that 11:59:59 PM is the last second of the previous day and 12:00:00 AM is the start of the new day.


The 24-hour clock equivalent is 00:00 h. 24:00h does not exist.
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Posted 10/20/2024   2:44 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add shermae to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The 6:04pm PDT is the close of the previous minute


Not correct in this or any other solar system.

eBay is accurate to the second. If the auction started at 6:03 and 21 seconds it will end at 6:03 and 21 seconds. eBay does NOT round up to the next whole minute.

Bid higher and you will win, even with snipes. But if someone wants the item more than you do, you will lose no matter what time it ends.
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Posted 10/20/2024   5:45 pm  Show Profile Check revenuecollector's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add revenuecollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This thread wounds my soul.
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