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German Postal Stationery Watermark List

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 11 / Views: 445Next Topic  
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1160 Posts
Posted 12/23/2024   08:57 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add PoStat4evR to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I have been trying to upgrade my "watermark" collection on German Postal Stationery. Does anyone know (other than reading the catalogs) of a link that shows the total list of Watermarks that show up on Germany Postal Stationery?

Michels lists them but if one does not read German, it makes it a tad harder.

Any help?
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
2932 Posts
Posted 12/23/2024   10:43 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add PostmasterGS to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't know of a consolidated list anywhere, just the examples spread throughout the Michel Ganzsachen-Katalog. Maybe I'll take that on as a project.
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Presenting the GermanStamps.net Collection - Germany, Colonies, & Occupied Territories, 1872-1945
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1160 Posts
Posted 12/23/2024   12:28 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add PoStat4evR to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I have run across one that Michael does not list. It could be a valid pattern, or a mismarked one, or a misprinted one. Since they don't print these in the first place (I think they are chemical placements) it may be a valid one. Just don't know.

I have a lot more to wander thru, so maybe I will be able to make one of my own someday. We shall see.

If I could speak German, I would try some of the stamp clubs over t ere in case someone may have done that already.
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
642 Posts
Posted 12/23/2024   12:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Germania to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I'm sure you know that watermarks are not printed or "chemically placed". A variation may be possible due to a broken wire or the printing shifting with respect to the paper.
Show us the watermark; maybe we can help you find it.
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
2932 Posts
Posted 12/23/2024   1:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add PostmasterGS to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Are you able to image the watermark? If not, can you show the card and sketch out the watermark for us?
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Presenting the GermanStamps.net Collection - Germany, Colonies, & Occupied Territories, 1872-1945
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1160 Posts
Posted 12/23/2024   2:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add PoStat4evR to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Germania: You are correct. Sorry for the mis-statement in my earlier post.
Postmaster GS: Will get to in on Xmas day (when I am off work and cane spend a little time getting the image.
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Pillar Of The Community
France, Metropolitan
3588 Posts
Posted 12/23/2024   2:26 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
German postal stationery means nothing.
Old German ? Weimar ?
Nobody knows what time frame you are talking about.
Anyway __below link for Hamburg:
https://www.schwanke-philatelie.de/...en-sprechen/

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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1160 Posts
Posted 12/23/2024   3:48 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add PoStat4evR to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
perf12: Thank you for the reply. The ones I was referring to is 1900-1930 is DW (Germany general) items, in general. I did not know there were so many different lists available. If all the towns had them, that kind of opens up a whole new collecting interest. Thank you.
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France, Metropolitan
3588 Posts
Posted 12/23/2024   5:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
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Edited by perf12 - 12/24/2024 08:34 am
Pillar Of The Community
United States
642 Posts
Posted 12/23/2024   6:48 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Germania to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
PoStat4evr,
You've picked a particularly complex aspect of German philately. One I am not too familiar with.
I have an old Ganzsachen-Katalog (1987). Apparently, there are not "many" different types watermarks. Looks like it is about 3. For example, the one perf12 shows is Wz 3. However, Wz 2 has several dozen variations. I have excerpted 2 paragraphs from the catalog which is all I could find on watermarks.



I find using this catalog to be extremely difficult.
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
2932 Posts
Posted 12/23/2024   7:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add PostmasterGS to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The 2021/2022 Ganzsachen Katalog says this (very rough translation due to less-than-perfect OCR):

Quote:

A common means of protection against counterfeiting was the watermark, which was usually pressed into the not yet dry paper mass using molds during production. While the watermark on the unprinted back of stamps is easier to identify and therefore the MICHEL stamp catalogs show the watermarks from the back of the stamp, the watermarks on postal stationery envelopes are easier to identify on the front. For this reason, the MICHEL postal stationery catalog shows the watermarks as they are seen from the front.

There is either a self-contained watermark image on a postal stationery (Hamburg envelopes) or, more commonly, a sheet watermark that runs across the entire length of paper or cardboard (Bavarian postal stationery 1876-1903). If the sheet watermark is a mark of the paper factory, it is called a factory watermark (German Empire, postcards 1894-1911).

A distinction is made between standing, lying, rising and falling watermarks. Irregular = unintentional position of the watermark is common, so one should not attach too much importance to such deviations.


In the Deutsches Reich section, it then says this:


Quote:

Since July 1894, the printed control data on the bottom right and the dot gaps in the 4th line of the simple 5 Pf cards have been eliminated; instead, the card now has a watermark that indicates the paper mill with a letter and the year of manufacture with a number. The dot gaps in the first two address lines on these cards now mean the month of printing. Since June 1900, all printed control data have been eliminated, but the watermark (letters and year) has been retained on the simple 2 and 5 Pf cards and introduced as a diamond watermark for all cards in 1906. In this, the Roman numeral means the paper mill, next to which the year was also indicated until 1909. From 1914, the watermark and thus all control marks were also eliminated.


Quote:

Introduction of watermarks as control characters:

Instead of the print data and letters that could no longer be exchanged in rotary printing, from 1894 onwards a watermark consisting of letters and numbers was used, initially in one line next to each other (vertical or diagonal), then in two lines below each other; from 1906 in a diamond-shaped border (see explanation before P 73).

The numbers indicate the year the cardboard was manufactured, the capital letter indicates the paper manufacturer. The following letters are used initially:

A (only colored postal order paper), B, C, D, E, L, M, S, W, Z; from 1899 also K, from 1902 additionally St (double letter).

Individual letters in different types (S1 only vertical):



Quote:

The other letters show only small differences. The year always appears in two digits (94-99) until 1899, in one digit from 1900 (0-5), in K from 1901 and W from 1904 in two digits (01-05). As a rule, the watermark can be read correctly when viewed from the address side, but the position also occurs reversed (sv), upside down (ko) or reversed upside down (sk); the dot gaps are often irregular. The value of these cards with an abnormal watermark is 2-5 times that of those with a normal watermark.


Thers's then a large table with the possible combinations of watermarks and control characters. Do you have a copy of the Ganzsachen Katalog 2021/2022?
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Presenting the GermanStamps.net Collection - Germany, Colonies, & Occupied Territories, 1872-1945
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1160 Posts
Posted 12/24/2024   8:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add PoStat4evR to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you all for the great replies on the subject. I have been adding a few items to the collection while going thru my pile of items.

It is amazing what one can find on these water mark items that was missed in years past.

I wish you all a Merry Christmas. and a Happy New year.

Will post some more after that holidays..

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