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grading of older stamps if they were valuable  
 

 
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Germany
67 Posts
Posted 01/08/2017   05:19 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add joker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Message
hello dear forum,

I always wonder about grading and the pricing for example at auction houses. I thitnk for newer stamps it's clear that they are not expensive if they are very used. But about really old ones I am not sure. At Siegel auctions e.g. I mostly see really nice pieces, so that does not help.

So my question is:
- how much does a (minor or bigger) fault reduce the price of an older stamp, like the ones in the photo here?

I don't want a price from you exactly for those scott numbers, they are only examples for a theoretical valuable old stamp from that time :).
So if I assume that I had a stamp which could be 10.000 dollars, how much would it be roughly, if:

1) one corner has a fault (photo left)
2) the back has a fault like a hinge (photo middle)
3) it's really worn (right photo)

As said it's not about these stamps but about a stamp that is really rare and could be 10.000 :).



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Edited by joker - 01/08/2017 05:20 am

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Posted 01/08/2017   07:00 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I can give you one example. I found a very rare US stamp, one of only 49 known. It had a crease and centering was not great (design touching one side) but many of the other 48 known stamps also had condition issues. This stamp has a major a Scott number. it was not some minor, flyspecced variety; albums all have a space for it. Catalog value was around $24,000, I got a clean certification for it.

I needed to offset some of my incredible high medical costs impacting my family so I decide to sell it. After many months it finally sold for around 15% of the catalog value.
Don
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Germany
67 Posts
Posted 01/08/2017   07:34 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add joker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Don and thank you for your example which is indeed not so nice for you. For my the question appears if it was just sold at 15% as this is often the case with catalogue values. our Michel catalogue for example lists stamps always too high So a stamp for 1000 EUR is in reality 10%-20%, 100 EUR (always and for all stamps except of really rare ones). Does Scott give a more realistic price?

or did you hear from auction house that the 15% really was because of the crease?

if yes: a crease seems to be "worse" than my left and middle stamp, but "better" than my right stamp, perhaps?
so "my 10.000 dollars stamp" would be
left: 2000 $
middle: 1500 $
right: 500 $

I just want to have a really rough idea how much impact there would be. Your example was already very helpful (if you just tell me if you heard about the reasons for the low price)
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Posted 01/08/2017   08:12 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Scott tries to set prices based upon market values; when it considers rarer stamps it does not have a lot of auction/sale results to base their opinion on.

It is usually easy to find examples of sold stamps which fall much higher and/or much lower than any given catalog value.

Here is the back of the stamp, and its crease, I mentioned above.



For this case, I think the catalog value was too high (it has been steadily falling over the last few years). I had gotten some early feedback from some very experienced people on what to expect and they were indeed correct.

On the other end of the scale you can find examples of stamps which have realized value much greater than the Scott catalog price.

So I am not sure that a simple formula can be defined.
Don
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Germany
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Posted 01/08/2017   08:18 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add joker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Don,

yes, about catalogue values there is always very much variety, but that was not my thought at the beginning. My thing was just about faults of stamps. I am really a beginner, so for me for examples the following 2 things could be correct:
- a rare stamp (10.000$ +) that has a hinge and some minor other faults is still pretty valuable, so something above 1000$
- a rare stamp (10.000$ +) that has a hinge and some minor other faults is not really valuable anymore, so something like 100$

I really don't know it :).
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United States
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Posted 01/08/2017   08:29 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rgstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Joker,

Even a tiny corner crease (minor fault) and definitely a larger crease (more in the body of a stamp)... these make the stamp "non-sound" -- they detract from Scott price dramatically.

a hinge remnant or a worn impression (as you asked about in your OP)... well this is subjective. There is definitely premium paid for stamps with "strong impression", "clean", on "bright paper", with "fiery color" (terms used by auction houses to draw your attention to your wallet or purse to up the bid). I would not classify these as faults unless the hinge remnant removal results in a thin or the worn impression is actually a surface rub or scuff. Stamp toning is a challenge to me as I have seen some really beautiful stamps that are toned.. I'm not sure I would consider this a fault.

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Germany
67 Posts
Posted 01/08/2017   08:44 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add joker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi

well I found just this list which is a bit too much for me :).
http://www.philatelicfoundation.org...izing-terms/

That's why I like more asking real people than lists :). And that's why I am making such unrealistic examples. Ok to make it even more clear:

---
I find a stamp which is really rare (10.000$). It has a huge crease, and many perforation errors and the back of the stamp is not nice at all.
someone says to me: "well this is really a bad one. I give you 100$."
I say:"???"

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United States
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Posted 01/08/2017   08:58 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Newby Stamper to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Welcome to the forum joker. 51studebaker gave you some good advice there and he hit the nail on the head. There isn't any one or kind of formula to use when selling stamps and if you have a cert with your stamp it doesn't mean that you will get full price(100%or even (15%) of the value.
In selling stamps condition, condition, condition is the main variable here just like selling land per say its location location location,
On 51studebaker example of 48 others, they pretty much looked the same but if one had of been lets say no crease and the F and not VG centering it might of stood out over the others and been valued at lets say 15,000.00.
At the end of the day selling stamps at an auction house or eBay or any other platform it is who wants or needs the stamp most and willing to pay the highest price so, in response to a formula = demand x condition x rarity x cleanliness x buyer x +x + x. Too
many variables come into play to have a set formula. It's more like hit and miss.
Hope all the replies you get will help you.

Oh and Don that's a nice stamp. It would look great in my collection
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Germany
67 Posts
Posted 01/08/2017   09:47 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add joker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
hello,

ok I understood all your point and from the others. But at least one can say (what I didn't know before) that the following faults are not so bad:

not so bad:
hinge
color change
back without gum which is not so beautiful

middle bad:
perforation issue (if it's only one or two)

bad:
crease

can I say that?
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Posted 01/08/2017   09:59 am  Show Profile Check stallzer's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add stallzer to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't consider a hinge a fault.
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Posted 01/08/2017   1:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dudley to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
To follow up on stallzer's point, not every aspect of a stamp's condition that affects its value is fault-related. A fault is some compromise in the integrity of the stamp as a colored piece of paper (crease, thin, wrinkle, pulled perforation, altered color, abrasion, tear, portion missing, etc.) that negatively affects its average market value. By contrast, better-than-average aspects of the stamp will enhance its average market value (never-hinged, exceptionally bright color, full intact perforations, sharp impression, etc.). But just because never-hinged status increases a stamp's value does not mean that an unused stamp with a hinge mark or no gum is faulty. It is simply not premium.
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United States
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Posted 01/08/2017   2:17 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add JLLebbert to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
When I peruse the graded stamps section of the Scott US specialized, I generally see stamps graded very good listed at roughly 25% of the very fine value. This seems to vary widely by issue, from around 20% to 40%, with the percentage tending to be higher for the rarer stamps. But most of the stamps I have searched from this list seem to hover around 25%. It is the very fine value that Scott uses (except for a few rarities) for values throughout their catalogue. The point I want to make is that I believe that all of the grades from Very Good through Superb are presumed to be, except for centering problems, completely fault-free. If my assumption is wrong, someone please tell me. I suspect many (if not most) faults would impact value at least as much as somewhat poor centering. So realistically, can one expect more than 25% CV for any damaged stamp? Most of the time I think the answer is "no". For rare stamps (like Don's), one would tend to think "maybe yes". Don't know if this helps, but hopefully it doesn't further muddy an already somewhat opaque topic.
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Posted 01/08/2017   5:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Rhett to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
JLLebbert, to answer your question, see the introduction to the U.S. Specialized by Grade section (yellow pages) of the Scott Specialized Catalogue of United States Stamps and Covers: "All the stamps valued herein are sound stamps." To my knowledge, Scott has never assigned grade values for faulty stamps.
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Germany
67 Posts
Posted 01/09/2017   10:00 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add joker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
hello all,

thank you for your answers and thoughts, this was indeed helpful, for a beginner and perhaps other beginners. Now I know much better what the impact ist and expecially that there are big differences in faults, and that some "faults" aren't really faults. Of course everybody wants to own the perfect stamp, but it's rare, and so it's good to hear that also stamps with hinge e.g. are still ok :).
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Posted 01/09/2017   10:27 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Scott tends to be lower (sometimes a lot lower) in catalog value than Michel.

Show me a $10 catalog value stamp with a fault and I will have no interest in it at any price, but the higher the catalog vlue, the more I might consider a faulty copy at the right price, but as others have indicated, there is no formula for what that right price is. Having said that, I would think that for a $10,000 CV stamp with a heavy crease and several short perfs that it would still bring more than $100 (1%).

Here is one thing to keep in mind about faults. I might prefer a stamp with a crease more than a stamp with a thin, but someone else will prefer the stamp with the thin (and of course this would all depend on how severe the crease and thin are).
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Posted 01/09/2017   10:56 pm  Show Profile Check TheArtfulHinger's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add TheArtfulHinger to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Michel catalogue for example lists stamps always too high So a stamp for 1000 EUR is in reality 10%-20%, 100 EUR (always and for all stamps except of really rare ones). Does Scott give a more realistic price?

Scott prices are more realistic than Michel (at least for the areas I'm familiar with), but they're still not very realistic in most cases. Michel's prices are usually around 50% higher than Scott, give or take a little.

For the original question of how much will certain faults reduce the price, it depends a lot on the stamp in question as well as individual collector preferences. Some might not mind a small corner crease where others might find it intolerable. For my part, I just make a judgement call. In the case of a hypothetical $100CV stamp, I might be willing to go up to 50% for a relatively attractive, sound copy. Note that I'd still hope to get it for less than that, but most of the time I won't go much higher, except for certain issues that typically trade higher than that. For any major fault, I'd immediately knock at least 50% off that, probably more, even if it doesn't really affect the appearance. Realistically, the 10-20% of catalog range or lower is what I'd expect to pay for faulty material of any kind, but only for higher CV stamps. I'm with eyeonwall that I'm not interested in faulty low value stamps at any price.
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