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mm size for coil waste issues  
 

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Valued Member

Germany
67 Posts
Posted 01/08/2017   05:09 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add joker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Message
hello again,

now after I learned a lot about paper the new thing I am learning is mm sizes, so that you can decide if it's rotary or flat.

I have an unused 2c which could be a 595 but I think it's not, as the size is just between flat and rotary, it's about 19,25mm x 22,25mm. I read that, always when a stamp is bigger than 19mm and/or 22mm, it's rotary, but the rotary sizes are even bigger than mine. So what about the stamps that are just a little little bit larger...

so my questions would be:
- are there also flat stamps that are a bit larger?
- is there a list of sizes for flat and rotary for all relevant stamps (1c, 2c, 3c and so on)? I only found a few.

on my photos I couldn't go too close because of perspective fault but I think you can see it. the left side of the ruler is 100% correctly made under loupe...





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Edited by joker - 01/08/2017 05:10 am

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2820 Posts
Posted 01/08/2017   06:35 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The issue here is that measuring the designs, especially using a ruler, using the listed dimensions leaves too much room for errors. The dimensions listed are estimates, the methods for reading the measuring tool are not consistent, and subjective bias easily leads to incorrect identifications.

To illustrate the issue a bit better I put together this graphic. Note the width of the line on the ruler and how it can be aligned in three distinctly different ways. Herein lies the problem, the delta in the three alignments may fall within the margin for error for the listed dimensions.



Now add in the fact that we all allow our personal biases creep in and we end up convincing ourselves that we have incredibly rare stamps. The ruler can become like a Ouija board, aligning itself to the dimensions we are hoping it is!

An alternative to trying to measure a ‘waste' stamp is to instead use a comparison template made from other known, stamps. There is further info for this located here http://www.stampsmarter.com/learnin...methods.html .

But understanding the design dimensions is just one clue in this puzzle; identifying the waste stamps requires a lot more experience and knowledge than the dimensions. There is not a single, simple method for determining a ‘waste' stamp. Stamp color, appropriate period cancels, printing and production methods all need to be fully understood before any level of confidence can be raised.

Some of us, myself included, have not learned all that is required to make these IDs even after years of being in the hobby. Instead, we rely upon highly regarded experts like Clark (cfrphoto) who has studied and specializes in this era US stamps.

So my best advice is to read up as much as you can about stamp production of this era. Assembly and build a reference collection of Washington/Franklin stamps for comparisons, make yourself some templates from other stamps, study higher quality auction and certification sites for legitimate examples of ‘waste' stamps, learn as much as you can regarding contemporary cancels.
Don
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Valued Member
Germany
67 Posts
Posted 01/08/2017   07:41 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add joker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Don :)

I read about these templates, I just am not brave enough to take a scissors... I am not a big collector but have just a few stamps from my family and bought some (30) some days ago at a flea market. So I don't have too much stamps to know 1000% sure that I can take the scissors. but perhaps I will find one.

Yes I know what you mean with self-delusion, I had it with some stamps. But with this one it resists being too large. I put the ruler under loupe at zero (left), and to be pesimistic, I put it that way that the ruler mark is not at all outside the design but inside (ruler line and design line below each other). It just looks perhaps different on the photos, because my camera was positioned exactly above the 22mm, not the 0mm. So the stamp is definitely larger than 19 and 22 mm, but not 19,5 or 22,5.

So my question still is if there is a list with all the sizes for rotary?
I don't own a Scott catalogue yet, is there a list, and in which catalogue?
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Edited by joker - 01/08/2017 07:43 am
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Posted 01/08/2017   08:16 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
joker,
Scott does indeed list design sizes for many stamps. It is not in a single list format, they note it in the details of each stamp listing. You would want to look for a "Scott Specialized" catalog; if you get one that is a year or two old you can save money.
Don
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Valued Member
Germany
67 Posts
Posted 01/08/2017   08:25 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add joker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
hi Don,

ok, so will search for a catalogue (just removed the photo I just posted as I found many more old books like that and have to research)

but even if I get this book, I guess I will have still the same question, so if flat is really never larger then 19 / 22 mm...

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Edited by joker - 01/08/2017 08:28 am
Valued Member
Germany
67 Posts
Posted 01/08/2017   12:09 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add joker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
hello everyone,

as I want to focus on the Franklin, Washington and similar stamps from the late 19th, beginning 20th, would then be this Scott be correct?
"Scott Specialized Catalogue of United States Stamps & Covers" (also without "& Covers")

The newest I found at local online shops was from 1988 - I guess this is too old as there were some last findings?

In the meantime it would be great if anyone just could give me the information which mm size(s) for the 2 cent Washington A157 coil waste there are in the Scott ?

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Pillar Of The Community
United States
3926 Posts
Posted 01/08/2017   12:25 pm  Show Profile Check Petert4522's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Petert4522 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Joker. I think you are putting way too much into these measurements. They are only meant as a guide - in your original post you already answered all your questions yourself. Due to the nature of paper there is no absolute measurement that is written in stone.
Become a member of the United States Stamp Society. They have a whole range of very good books and papers that go into these matters.

Peter
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Valued Member
Germany
67 Posts
Posted 01/08/2017   12:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add joker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Peter,

as I am here in Germany it's in general difficult for me to understand everything in such complicated topics like paper consistency and printing fabrication. Also, the Scott catalogues are very expensive. That is why I asked my questions if this would be the correct catalogue, and if it should be quite new.

Yes, nothing in life is written in stone, but if there are any sizes given for the mentioned stamp in the Scott I would be glad to have them :).
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
830 Posts
Posted 01/08/2017   3:05 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cjpalermo1964 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This earlier thread should have everything you need.

http://goscf.com/t/14081
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Valued Member
Germany
67 Posts
Posted 01/08/2017   3:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add joker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
ok, I think I will just get the newest possible Scott Specialized.
About the 595 I found that it should be at least 19,5mm width (height seems to be secondary?), so too much for mine.

It's not because I am keen on this (?), but just interesting. When a catalogue or an expert says that the flat printings are below or equal 19mm, of course this rule is for me "written in stone" :). Papier or color does not grow over the years, does it? of course there is some room for let's say 0,1 or 0,2mm, but not more?

But as said I am really willing to learn. So is it like that, that the size of the design is not relevant for deciding if it is a flat or rotary when the size is just between these two? And did you see flat versions which had a width obviously larger than 19mm?

That would be my last question in this.
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Valued Member
Germany
67 Posts
Posted 01/08/2017   3:16 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add joker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
great and thank you, cipalermo! indeed there are answers and also a list!

(...but it also ends with an open question)
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Edited by joker - 01/08/2017 3:27 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United States
830 Posts
Posted 01/08/2017   3:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cjpalermo1964 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
In my opinion your error is thinking that you can identify the stamp by making the measurement as your first step, and if it is within the range for rotary, ending the inquiry.

For experts, though, the measurement is not the first step, and it is not dispositive. It is merely one of several factors that are considered together in rendering an opinion on identification. This is what prior comments in this thread have been trying to tell you.

I realize this is frustrating when you are seeking an easy, objective, immediate way to identify these stamps, but measurement cannot be used in that manner.
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Valued Member
Germany
67 Posts
Posted 01/08/2017   3:57 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add joker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello,

I just thought that way because I read this in many forum entries, PDF texts and also on websites of auction houses. And I didn't find another defining element there.

You're 100% right, I am not an expert :) - and this is exactly why I thought I need the measurement as my first step. I don't assume after that (now) that it's rotary. But are you saying that non-experts should just not measure? what should they do with all their possible rotary stamps :-) ? Isn't a really larger size a first hint?

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Pillar Of The Community
United States
830 Posts
Posted 01/08/2017   5:39 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cjpalermo1964 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
1. Nothing wrong with measuring. It's just not the sole test.
2. Use a cheap stamp that is known to be flat plate, with the corners cut off as a template, not a ruler.
OR
3. Get the Sonic Imagery Labs precision multi-gauge.
http://www.slingshotvenus.com/stamp...tyPerf5.html
On the above web page, note item 3 included in the gauge, "Go-No Go Rotary / Flat Plate Press Gauge"
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Valued Member
Germany
67 Posts
Posted 01/09/2017   10:04 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add joker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
hello and thank you again. Yes I will make a template, but I don't have a 599, 552 or 501, which I read it would work with. Soon I will have more stamps :). But is there another scott no. which could be good as template?

and another (last) understanding issue: the coil waste stamps are perf 11 - probably on 4 sides? so an imperforated or partly perforated (vertically, horizontally, one side no perforation) can never be a rotary coil waste? or is it possible for stamps with 1 side imperforated and the others 11?
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United States
482 Posts
Posted 01/09/2017   11:41 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add angore to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Rather than measuring, I thought the Precision US Specialty Multi-guage was intended to help. It has frames of many size.

http://www.slingshotvenus.com/PDFs/...ataSheet.pdf
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Al
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